John Legend on Bringing ‘Rhythm + Flow’ to Netflix and the Controversy Over This Season’s Winner

John Legend has become such a symbol for R&B that it’s easy to forget that the EGOT got his start aligning with hip-hop artists. He emerged on the scene being a big part of Kanye West’s GOOD Music label. So to see The Voice judge producing Netflix hip-hop competition show Rhythm + Flow should come as no surprise. With the second season now wrapped, Legend and his Get Lifted Film Co. partner Mike Jackson spoke with The Hollywood Reporter about why they started the show, how it got renewed after its COVID cancellation, new and past judges, the controversy surrounding the season two winner and their new podcast Why Not Me? With Mike Jackson.

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How did you both get involved with Rhythm + Flow and how did you make it to Netflix?

JOHN LEGEND We were involved from very early on. We were trying to pitch it to networks to get this show out there because we believed that it was such a powerful format for highlighting up-and-coming hip hop artists, giving hip hop the due that it deserves [with] its own reality competition show. We had originally sold it to a network, but we found that it wasn’t working there. I think the bottom line is it needed to be in a premium situation where we could get the full raw truth of people’s lives, of their lyrics uncensored, and get the full energy and unruliness that hip hop brings to the world. I feel like it wouldn’t have worked as well on network TV. So I’m so glad that it ended up in Netflix, and I’m so glad it’s back.

MIKE JACKSON With broadcast, you have to respect the advertiser so you’re limited to the dollar. And with Netflix, it’s a global network, so your show can be seen around the world. If you want to be for the culture, you have to be about the culture. And I think the only way to really do that is to have the cuffs off, to actually have the freedom to move how you want.

LEGEND if you watch the show, it’s just so real and it’s really hard to replicate that on any other kind of broadcast format. You just can’t do it in the way that we’re able to do it on Netflix.

John Legend, some people forget you’re part of a hip-hop movement with Kanye West, Common and did all those great hooks back in the day. But why a hip-hop show from you, as opposed to an R&B show, considering that at this point a lot of people see you as the continuation and savior of R&B?

LEGEND I feel like R&B gets a lot of opportunity to shine on the kind of shows that I’m already on. The Voice has a tremendous stable of R&B talent coming through every season. The last season I was on, [Asher HaVon], an R&B singer, won from Alabama. I feel like there’s a lot of opportunity for R&B singers to shine on other competition shows, and fundamentally, those shows are about covering songs, and I thought this was unique and special, because this isn’t about covering songs; it’s about telling your own story. I felt there was a space in the market, space with the audience, to see that kind of show. And I think doing an R&B show would have been hard to not be similar to all the other singing competition shows.

When did you know that you wanted to have your own production company and produce your own shows? And how did you and Mike hook up?

LEGEND When we first hooked up, he was my music manager. I was just graduating from college and trying to get a record deal. I had played on Lauryn Hill’s Miseducation [of Lauryn Hill] album, and I was meeting different producers and writers that were helping me make my first demos. And Mike was living in Philly and was pretty popular and well connected there. He started managing me to help me get some gigs around town and make some connections. So we became friends and business associates and partners back then. The management thing didn’t work out, but he started working in television and film and saw that there’d be an opportunity for us to do something together, to tell great stories and use my growing fame and influence and music to parlay that into making some great content outside of music.

JACKSON Just to add to that, Jason Blum, who’s a very successful producer [with] Blumhouse [said something] I’ll never forget. I was in Vancouver shooting a movie. I was in prep, and Jason happened to show up because he knew my producing partner, and what he said to me really resonated. He goes. “The business is so tough because, if you’re not the talent, you’re not born into it, and you’re not writing the check, it’s really tough to crack.” And I was like, “Well, I’m fucked. I’m not talent, I’m not born into it, and I’m not writing the check.” So I basically started to think about my creative friends, and people that felt similar to how I felt and thought. John was my closest friend at that time, and I to this day look to him for guidance [because of] how he sees the world and his thought process. With Jason Blum’s words resonating in my head, I called John, I remember from my backyard, and convinced him to say, “Yes, let’s go build this thing together.” I knew then that he would become who he is now. I believed in the trajectory that he was on. And I was like, “Let’s start thinking about what we can do tomorrow today.” That was around 2012 when we launched Get Lifted. And ever since then, we’ve been working towards telling really important stories that are multicultural at their core, but still have a message.

How did you agree on the name Get Lifted?

LEGEND It was so connected to who I am as an artist and, as we celebrate 20 years of Get Lifted, that album still is a defining album in my career. And we wanted to elevate great stories, elevate great artists, great creators, writers, directors, storytellers. So we decided that get lifted was the right name.

Talk about the first Rhythm + Flow. You guys come out the gate with great hosts in T.I., Cardi B and Chance the Rapper and great guest hosts.

LEGEND We had Snoop, we had Nipsey. So many great artists came by. Eminem came by [this season] and we went to Detroit. So many of the guests just loved doing this because I think everybody saw themselves in these young artists; they saw the come-up, they saw the grind, they saw the time trying to find your story and tell it, and I think they were all excited by our main three judges. But all of our guest judges were amazing as well.

JACKSON Also people really responded to season one and participating in season one was because, unlike a lot of the other music competition shows, we didn’t have a record deal waiting for you at the end of that show, which may or may not make sense. What we had was a pile of cash and your own ability to do with it as you choose. So you could get that money [and] make an independent album. You could do whatever you want with it. And I know for Chance, even just being a judge, that was pivotal for him committing to the show, and then the other people partaking, as well, like the fact, again, [of the show] being for the culture meaning letting people live free, and kind of do what they feel they needed to do.

From the very beginning you’ve incorporated women and it’s been very organic.

LEGEND The talent is there, and why would you exclude so many talented young ladies who have a story to tell? I felt it would be crazy to not include these great young female emcees on the show. They’re shining on the show. It’s not affirmative action to include them. It’s just acknowledging the gifts that they have and the energy and the spark they have. And they brought it both seasons. Just look at the industry right now. I just feel like so much of the dynamism and the energy is coming from female rappers.

You do the first show and it’s very successful. Then COVID hits. How did you bring it back?

LEGEND We basically were canceled because of COVID. We were planning to shoot season two, and then the whole world got turned upside down, and we got canceled. Then [Netflix] started to see that the format was doing well in other countries. So, which countries are we in now Mike?

JACKSON France, Brazil, Italy. To John’s point, these international shows started popping up and doing really well. And I think Netflix just realized, at the end of the day, we’re totally global [and] need to have a season two. We need to have the original show flourish as well, and then conversations picked back up and here we are.

LEGEND And I see so much potential for the future. I could see this being in so many different countries, different languages. I just see a great future for the format. I just think hip-hop culture is so important to the world, and there’s so many places where a show like this could flourish. I feel very optimistic about the possibilities of there being a Rhythm + Flow Nigeria, a Rhythm + Flow South Africa, a Rhythm + Flow UK. I just feel like there’s so many opportunities because the culture is there and the artists are there, and this format lends itself to being translated all around the world.

Because the world is different from when you premiered it, what was the approach this time around?

LEGEND Well, there still wasn’t a show like our show, and so I felt like there was a space for that. And Netflix is even more powerful than ever. Like Mike said, it’s global. The whole world can watch it, and it allows us to be as raw and real as we need to be to tell the stories of our artists and for them to tell their stories. So I feel like there was still a hunger for the show, and no one else was feeding that hunger.

In addition to the high production value of the show with the cinematography and everything else, the artists seem so much more ready than season one. Speak to that part and how it fed into season two?

LEGEND Having a successful first season makes artists want to be on the show. It gives the show credibility. Before we were selling them on a show that didn’t exist. And now they’ve seen D Smoke. He was nominated for Best New Artist at the Grammys after being on our show. And I think there’s more of that independent spirit that’s just dominant in music in general now because of TikTok [and] all the ways that artists can be seen and heard now, and there’s this sense of hustle and entrepreneurialism that is perfect for hip-hop.

So what made this combination of Ludacris, Latto and Khaled work this time?

JACKSON I think you want to have that female perspective, first and foremost. [Latto] represents the artform [where] it currently is. Luda’s been doing it for decades [and] you want to have that voice of reason [from] the guy or the person, rather, who’s been there, done that, and get that perspective. And then Khaled was great because he’s a producer and artist. He kind of embodies everything that’s happening in the genre right now as both an artist and a producer

LEGEND And I think all three of them are really smart, but they bring very different perspectives. And I think it’s always important for us to have a younger artist on there. I think it’s key to not just have it be like the kind of the senior, elder statesman, judging on the show. I think it’s good to have someone who’s fresh and very current along with people who have a lot of experience. So I think it’s a really good combination.

JACKSON Latto also won a rap competition show as well, which gives an extra layer of credibility for how this process works and what it takes to be successful, not just on the show, but beyond.

The ending is a controversial one, with DreTL winning over Jay Taj. What are your thoughts?

LEGEND I think people should debate it. That’s the thing. It’s always debatable. And that’s hip-hop, that’s so much of our culture, like barbershop culture, who’s your top five? You know who’s better, Michael Jordan or LeBron? That’s the stuff we’re supposed to be debating all the time. That’s what makes it fun, and that’s what makes it engaging.

JACKSON It’s important to say that the judges pick the winner. There’s no producer in the background in their ears.

LEGEND We’re not trying to push them. We really allow them to follow their heart, follow their ear. And it’s not easy to compare things like that, because they’re not even just comparing those two artists, they’re so different stylistically and in the kind of music they’re trying to make, and they both are very gifted at what they do, but taste is different and part of it is like ‘are you just saying who’s the better MC purely, or are you saying who could be the most successful [artist]? I feel like that’s the debate we’re always having in hip hop and in music because some guys are more successful, but they might not be the most pure MC. That’s going to always be the debate.

JACKSON [To those who try] to say [DreTL won] because Latto and Luda live in Atlanta and the show is in Atlanta, I’m just saying that’s coincidence.

LEGEND But also ATL is really the center of hip hop right now.

JACKSON I think DreTL won because he’s very talented. He was in the mix. It was anyone’s competition to win. On that day I was in the room.

LEGEND Yeah, that room lit up. I was there.

JACKSON Maybe the crowd helped. Who can say? But the reality is, what we saw that day led to DreTL [winning]. It was left up to what the judges ultimately decided. We understood the decision, but it was close. It was special.

LEGEND It was not easy. It was not a slam dunk. It was close.

And then there’s the other controversy with Detroit Diamond’s great battle with Dono being cut from the competition when the battle with LG and JAXS wasn’t so great. So to see an artist so formidable like Dono leave when you had a battle that wasn’t up to par is hard.

JACKSON Season one, we had an artist named Beanz leave during the battles, and she was, in my opinion, one of the top contestants on the show, male or female, and she lost to Flawless and was gone. Sometimes some of the stronger competitors go down early. I just think it’s the luck of the draw [and] who you get put up against format, and it has to be what it’s going to be. What we certainly can’t do is change the rules to accommodate someone because we think they’re more talented. Part of being great is showing up and delivering.

LEGEND It’s a competition show, and there’s a game to it, and there are rules to the game. And it also doesn’t mean that those artists are doomed to fail in their careers. It just means they didn’t win this show. And I tell people this on The Voice all the time: this is just a step in your journey, and you got a lot of exposure, and you can take that exposure and use it to translate into success in your career. Winning the show isn’t the only way for that to happen.

JACKSON From season one, Rae Khalil did not win the show [but] Rae won a Grammy last year, writing for Anderson .Paak. But further to John’s point, the platform and the exposure, is the win. Obviously, if you get first place, you get the check. That’s great, but you don’t need first place or the check to capitalize on the platform.

You guys have the Why Not Me? With Mike Jackson podcast that showcases the journeys of established names in the industry. How did that happen and why?

JACKSON I live in Austin, Texas [and] it just started as me doing public speaking and panels, and everyone that looked like us asking me about my journey. I realized that I have a lot of friends that have incredible stories to share as well. So I started flying people to Austin and leading these conversations that evolved to the main stage of South by Southwest, which has now evolved to this podcast, and we’ve had Yara Shahidi as our guest, Leslie Odom Jr, John Legend. La La Anthony Gabby [Union], Jamele Hill, a lot of great guests. D Nice, Roy Wood Jr, Michael Ealy. So we’ve had a litany of incredible guests so far in season one, but the idea I get behind it is to create an opportunity and a forum for people of color to find people that look like them and not see John Legend as John Legend today, but see how John Legend became John Legend, the kid that was born in Springfield, Ohio, the hurdles he had to face growing up, the support or lack of support, depending on who you’re talking, from their family and their community. It’s about journey and process. And it’s not just about ‘oh, they’re famous.’ It’s like how did you get there.

LEGEND I think it’s really teaching people a lot about the business and inspiring people to help them see themselves realizing their full dreams by seeing people who’ve done it [and] knowing that the journey wasn’t always easy for us. I grew up in Ohio, Gabby grew up in Nebraska, like we grew up in some random places and we found our way into this business in one way or another, and have had quite a bit of success in one way or another. But everybody’s journey is different. But I think people can listen and find themselves in all of us and see themselves having careers in this business, if they kind of take in some of that advice and input that we’re giving them.

JACKSON I will say they’re mostly all my friends, and maybe they’re lying to me, but I think because they’re my friends, they’re not. The reaction has been so far, from everyone that participated [that] ee need more dialogue like this for the community. So this is actually the first time we’re talking about the podcast publicly. So now we’re just getting the word out there and making people aware it exists.

LEGEND Episodes are evergreen, so it’s not like they’re timed to a specific event. People can access them anytime and, now that we have a bit of a library of them out there, I think it’d be a good education for anybody to listen to them who wants to work in our business.

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Both seasons of Rhythm + Flow are now streaming on Netflix.